DATAFILE?? 2005-10-19 - By rjsearle@(protected)
Wow, I wondered if this would generate some discussion...
I think a certain balance is required. In the left corner we have a newbie
who doesn't know about http://tahiti.oracle.com. In the right corner, we
have the Oracle (no not the product, nor the company, THE Oracle, you know?
The one who has seen, done and read it all and is only to be disturbed by
Larry himself and only about the most grave technical matters?
Somewhere in the middle are the rest of us. I know that I am still way down
near the left corner, and trying to learn as I go. i think that the views
here are excellent and I expect that there are people the world over reading
these posts, nodding and saying "yeah, sure" in full agreement.
I think most would agree that this forum should not be restricted to
discussing the esoteric undocumented features of oracle, or critqueing the
implementation of the X$ memory structures, or debating the merits of the
physical block layouts etc. While interesting and certainly within the scope
of this forum, I suspect that most of us have little need for such topics.
On the other hand, I think this forum should not be used a the "first port
of call", regardless of the complexity of the problem. Doing so can be
construed as a little bit lazy and relying on others to solve your problems
without first trying yourself. I think the objections raised earlier is less
to do with the neture of the question rather that it appears that NO
research had been conducted prior to requesting the help of others.
So I think everyone should try to help themselves as best they can before
asking for help. After all, if YOU can't be bothered to try and solve your
problems, why should anyone else? I would expect that all of the people on
this list would be very willing to help others solve particular problems. I
believe in "What goes around comes around". If you help others, others will
help you. If you try to solve problems, others will help solve those as
well.
This is sent in the spirit of community and honesty. I hope that you all
take no offence at anything I have said. This is a great forum and I want to
see it continue with the involvement of skilled and reputable experts. We
are all time constrained, but if we are lazy in our use of this forum, the
more knowledgeable folk will get sick of time wasting questions and leave
the forum. Remember, this is a valuable resource consisting of volunteers.
Respect the time of others by first investing some of your own time and I
think this forum will work a treat!
I just scrolled up again and realised that I'm rambling, so enough
preaching from me, I've used enough of your time
Russell
On 10/20/05, Ram K <lambu999@(protected)> wrote:
>
>
> When a person starts learning the DBA side of things they see tremendous
> amount of information, spread among hundreds of Oracle manuals (which change
> every version), let alone books, online sources, etc. Even if we consider
> the manuals only, reference to a specific topic probably could be found in
> 200 different locations in 10 different manuals. It is quite possible the
> answer may be in one manual, but when I am a beginner it gets difficult for
> me to sort things out. This could be sometimes overwhelming if I am new to
> the topic.
>
> So when people who are experienced see such questions, it will be greatly
> helpful if they can put themselves in the shoes of beginners for a bit. If
> you like an analogy let us say some of the very experienced DBAs set to
> learn medicine. There are thousands of manuals and books. All the
> terminilogy, the talk, the terms, etc will be completely new. It will be
> very confounding to them. The questions they ask may sound very basic to
> experienced doctors. New learners of Oracle are in a similar situation.
> Experts: please bear with us. Thanks as always for all your help which we
> get for free here :)
>
> Ram.
>
> On 10/19/05, Murching, Bob <bob_murching@(protected)> wrote:
> >
> > > I am not sure how we can collectively balance out as you suggested.
> > > Should we take turns ask one mid to advanced question for every newbie
> > > question posted to keep this list interesting?
> > First, for the record, I agree with much of what you said; the concern
> > I have is that this list isn't necessary "better" if it concerns only
> > questions that less than 20 people on the planet are qualified to answer.
> > Some of the best discussion I see here begins rather innocuously with a
> > newbie question that evolves into something much more interesting... people
> > read the original question and ask it again but with a different spin. Some
> > of these innocent questions have led to the so-called experts disagreeing
> > with each other and making for some interesting debate. It would be a shame
> > to see all that gone. The best signal sometimes comes with a little bit of
> > noise.
> > To answer your question.... absolutely. That's exactly what people
> > should be doing. The list is what its members make it. If you feel that the
> > content doesn't meet a certain bar, then raise the bar by asking tough
> > questions or offering answers of a caliber that you feel should set the
> > standard. Or take the newbie question and rephrase it in a way that takes it
> > to the "next level" (whatever that may mean.)
> > Bob
> >
>
>
<div>Wow, I wondered if this would generate some discussion...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think a certain balance is required. In the left corner we have a
newbie who doesn't know about <a href="http://tahiti.oracle.com">http://tahiti
.oracle.com</a>. In the right corner, we have the Oracle (no not the
product, nor the company, THE Oracle, you know? The one who has seen,
done and read it all and is only to be disturbed by Larry himself and only
about the most grave technical matters?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Somewhere in the middle are the rest of us. I know that I am still
way down near the left corner, and trying to learn as I go. i think that
the views here are excellent and I expect that there are people the world over
reading these posts, nodding and saying "yeah, sure" in full
agreement.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think most would agree that this forum should not be restricted to
discussing the esoteric undocumented features of oracle, or critqueing the
implementation of the X$ memory structures, or debating the merits of the
physical block layouts etc. While interesting and certainly within the
scope of this forum, I suspect that most of us have little need for such topics
.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>On the other hand, I think this forum should not be used a the "first
port of call", regardless of the complexity of the problem. Doing so
can be construed as a little bit lazy and relying on others to solve your
problems without first trying yourself. I think the objections raised
earlier is less to do with the neture of the question rather that it appears
that NO research had been conducted prior to requesting the help of others.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So I think everyone should try to help themselves as best they can before
asking for help. After all, if YOU can't be bothered to try and solve
your problems, why should anyone else? I would expect that all of the
people on this list would be very willing to help others solve particular
problems. I believe in "What goes around comes around".
If you help others, others will help you. If you try to solve problems,
others will help solve those as well.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is sent in the spirit of community and honesty. I hope that you
all take no offence at anything I have said. This is a great forum and I
want to see it continue with the involvement of skilled and reputable experts.
We are all time constrained, but if we are lazy in our use of this forum,
the more knowledgeable folk will get sick of time wasting questions and leave
the forum. Remember, this is a valuable resource consisting of volunteers
. Respect the time of others by first investing some of your own time and
I think this forum will work a treat!
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I just scrolled up again and realised that I'm rambling, so enough
preaching from me, I've used enough of your time</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Russell<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/20/05, <b class="gmail_sendername">Ram K<
/b> <<a href="mailto:lambu999@(protected)">lambu999@(protected)</a>> wrote:<
/span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0
.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div><br> When a person starts learning the DBA side of things they
see tremendous amount of information, spread among hundreds of Oracle
manuals (which change every version), let alone books, online sources, etc.
Even if we consider the manuals only, reference to a specific topic probably
could be found in 200 different locations in 10 different manuals. It is quite
possible the answer may be in one manual, but when I am a beginner it gets
difficult for me to sort things out. This could be sometimes overwhelming if
I am new to the topic.
<br> <br> So when people who are experienced see such
questions, it will be greatly helpful if they can put themselves in the shoes
of beginners for a bit. If you like an analogy let us say some of the
very experienced DBAs set to learn medicine. There are thousands of
manuals and books. All the terminilogy, the talk, the terms, etc will be
completely new. It will be very confounding to them. The questions they ask
may sound very basic to experienced doctors. New learners of Oracle are in
a similar situation.
<br> </div>
<div>Experts: please bear with us. Thanks as always for all your help which we
get for free here :) </div><span class="sg">
<div> <br>Ram.</div>
<div><br> </div></span>
<div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/19/05, <b class="gmail
_sendername">Murching, Bob</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window
,event,this)" href="mailto:bob_murching@(protected)" target="_blank">
bob_murching@(protected)</a>> wrote:</span> </span>
<div><span class="e" id="q_1070b6133bb7ab79_4">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0
.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><span>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" color="
#0000ff"> <font face="Times New Roman" color="#000000">> </font></font><
/span>I am not sure how we can collectively balance out as you suggested.
<br><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"> <font face="Times New Roman"
color="#000000">> </font> </font></span>Should we take turns ask one
mid to advanced question for every newbie<br><span><font face="Arial" color="
#0000ff">
<font face="Times New Roman" color="#000000">> </font> </font><
/span>question posted to keep this list interesting?<br><span><font face="Arial"
color="#0000ff"> </font></span></font></div></span>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" color="
#0000ff">First, for the record, I agree with much of what you said; the
concern I have is that this list isn't necessary "better" if it
concerns only questions that less than 20 people on the planet are qualified to
answer. Some of the best discussion I see here begins rather innocuously
with a newbie question that evolves into something much more interesting...
people read the original question and ask it again but with a different spin.
Some of these innocent questions have led to the so-called experts
disagreeing with each other and making for some interesting debate. It
would be a shame to see all that gone. The best signal sometimes comes
with a little bit of noise.
</font></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span><
/span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span
>To answer your question.... absolutely. That's exactly what people should
be doing. The list is what its members make it. If you feel that
the content doesn't meet a certain bar, then raise the bar by asking tough
questions or offering answers of a caliber that you feel should set the
standard. Or take the newbie question and rephrase it in a way that takes
it to the "next level" (whatever that may mean.)
</span></font></div><span>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span><
/span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span
>Bob</span></font></div></span></blockquote></span></div></div><br></blockquote>
</div><br>
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